Wine Talk

Snooth User: panoskakaviatos

Three video perspectives on Bordeaux 2010 from barrel...

Posted by panoskakaviatos, May 22, 2011.

Just thought I would share three videos on Bordeaux 2010, from en primeur week. I like how Bill Blatch for example lends a certain realism to the tasting experience, although I did not find the wines THAT difficult to taste. Certainly 2009 was easier to taste en primeur, it was a more immediately flattering tasting experience on the whole. As was 2005 by the way... Hope this is enjoyable!

http://www.connectionstowine.com/bo...

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Replies

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Reply by JonDerry, May 22, 2011.

Good stuff, thanks for posting.  Interesting and useful to hear some dissenting opinions on 2010.

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Reply by panoskakaviatos, May 23, 2011.

Cheers, glad you found it useful. Personally, I am suffering from vintage of the century fatigue, especially as 2010 prices seem to be even more expensive than expensive 2009 prices... Beychevelle at almost $100 per bottle? Sounds insane. I wonder to what extent that will drive the prices ever higher for wines like Leoville Barton, Grand Puy Lacoste, Gruaud Larose, which have more often than not been rather reasonable, but always higher than Beychevelle... And then of course the big guns like Palmer, Cos, Montrose, Ducru, to say nothing of the first growths... Painful pricing I foresee! Will make in bottle Bordeaux that much more attractive, if you need to buy more Bordeaux.

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Reply by dmcker, May 23, 2011.

Beychevelle at $100 is a parody in itself, though Suntory must be patting themselves on their collective backs.

Thanks for the video snippets from a couple of players in the marketplace. You seemed to be having a good time at Ausone. ;-)

How will this Bordeaux bubble burst, do you think? Not until the Chinese bubble bursts in 18-24 months, or...? For all of the Bordelaise marketing savvy, what's the point of pricing product beyond the reach of a whole generation of drinkers, even the serious ones? And how far can credibility stretch when every vintage is supposedly a great/classic/of-the-century one?

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Reply by Stephen Harvey, May 24, 2011.

The China bubble....when is an intriguing question?

Have we ever seen a communist country with a command style politcal system oversee a capitalist style economy?  It will be an interesting episode in world history to observe

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Reply by dmcker, May 24, 2011.

And when Red Army operations are privatized, and taken over by former officers. Kinda like the KGB and privatization in Russia in the '90s? What parallels will future economists draw 10-20 years from now?

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Reply by Stephen Harvey, May 24, 2011.

Can't see the Beijing Boys ceding control in my lifetime

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Reply by dmcker, May 24, 2011.

Ah, but how well will which of them be able to maintain control over a time of great change?

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Reply by panoskakaviatos, May 24, 2011.

Who knows when the bubble will pop? I wish some of these wines were not so expensive. Ausone was fun! It was a bit difficult to taste the first wine, but the Chapelle was delicious. I mean, it really was one of the best second wines I tried last month from barrel. But I think my overall favorite on the Right Bank remains VCC!

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Reply by dmcker, May 24, 2011.
Edited May 24, 2011

By VCC I assume you mean Vieux Chateau Certan? Tell us more about it....

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Reply by JonDerry, May 24, 2011.

Cannot wait to try the 09 and 10' Certan's, though it might be a while before I get the opportunity.

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Reply by Stephen Harvey, May 25, 2011.

Panos

Thanks interesting videos, I suspect I maybe well into my 60's before I enjoy the 2010's given the tannin comments it seems they will be a good 15 years before they start to awaken form their hibernation

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Reply by JonDerry, May 25, 2011.

SH,

From my experience, most right bank bordeaux can be popped after 5-10 years of bottle age.  I was lucky enough to try an 05' Pavie a few weekends ago and it was sublime, though admittedly it was probably opened at least a couple of years too soon and will age for decades.  Obviously, assuring provenance is always one of the major benefits of opening early.

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Reply by dmcker, May 25, 2011.

Bordeaux, and the Right Bank in particular (though not exclusively), has gone through considerable change over the past decade or more as those Bordelaise marketeers have taken stock of just how RP's ratings have changed the marketplace. Several well established chateaux, and certainly the garagistes, have jumped on the bigger fruit, rounder/lesser tannins, restrained acid bandwagon, focusing also on producing wines that are quaffable right out of the gate.

Pavie is a prime example. Towards the end of the past decade I had a '63 Pavie which I'd stored pretty much ex-chateau (via only a boutique wineshop in Paris, from which it was flown airfreight to me) since the mid '80s. Provenance thus excellent. It was still extremely healthy, and drank as an entirely different wine than those from the turn of the millenium and shortly thereafter, when Pavie's winemaker was in full lust after the highest possible Parker ratings. I'm extremely skeptical that the Pavies from the past decade will be able to last 35 years. I'll be nervous when they get to half that. They also won't likely be able to display the lush refinement that those earlier iterations from a different winemaker developed over time....

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Reply by JonDerry, May 26, 2011.

No doubt D, that's consistent with the accounts i've been reading over the years.

Obviously, I can only speak from my own limited experience, but when I tasted the 05' Pavie I did not think fruit bomb, or California Cabernet, though I can certainly understand how it attempts to lean in that direction.  Would of course be very interested in trying an older Pavie or two for more perspective.  Anyway, here are my notes.

Chateau Pavie 2005: After looking through my manufacturing partner's cellar of newly stocked Bordeaux and copious box sets of CA Cabernet, I tactfully pleading a case to open a 2005 Cheval Blanc. He didn't go for it, but was pensive for a moment before doing me a compromise with the 05 Pavie. I of course had read plenty about the back-story regarding Pavie's recent over-extraction controversy and was especially curious to taste for myself, though i'm not sure how much of this was in play for the 05' vintage.

Tasting Note: Nice aroma's of sweet soil, licorice, and red fruits. Very well balanced medium bodied texture, though not a very explosive blast of fruit on the palate. Simply a well oiled machine of flowers, licorice mint, red fruit, and sweet soil. Velvety tannins, and a good persistent finish. Something holding me back from giving a classic rating, but just by a whisker, and of course there's still room for improvement here. 94-95 points. No over-extraction that I could tell, definitely tasted more Bordeaux than Cali to me.

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Reply by dmcker, May 26, 2011.

Any other 2005s of that caliber you've had to put it in some perspective?

I've never thought the transitioning Bourdeauxs taste exactly like Napas, just that they're definitely heading in that direction....

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Reply by JonDerry, May 26, 2011.

I haven't actually, but plan to at least try the Le Fleur Cardinale soon, will let you know on that one.  Kind of a right bank sleeper that's getting very good reviews.  Not sure what else I can pick up at a reasonable price. 

Any other suggestions?

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Reply by JonDerry, May 26, 2011.

Check that, should've been Fleur Cardinale...

http://www.chateau-fleurcardinale.com/

 

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Reply by panoskakaviatos, May 26, 2011.

Thanks for sharing the note on 2005 Pavie from bottle, which I have not tried since 2008. Sounds like it has evolved not too badly, in this still early period. More often than not, however, and from barrel, Pavie seems to me to have a somewhat drying palate. Well, you can look at two big threads on two wine bulletin boards to read the long discussions about Pavie 2010, which lacks freshness for me. This is certainly not the case of VCC, or Vieux Chateau Certan, in Pomerol, which has just as much structure, but comes across as juicier, fresher. Both wines are going to be terribly expensive, and if I had that money to spend, I would easily opt for the VCC, because I think it will age far more gracefully.

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Reply by dmcker, May 26, 2011.

Well if you don't get the VCC, you could at least try the neighboring La Conseillante. Also from Pomerol, maybe a Trotanoy, and Clinet can have its very good vintages. You might also like Latour a Pomerol, which has plenty of fruit but also complex, smoky mystery at times.

Also, of course, from over in St. Emilion a Figeac, and I've almost always found Angelus more than interesting. I used to drink a lot of Canon and Trottevielle (and even Magdelaine) but have found them irregular over the years. Ditto Troplong-Mondot, which has its following, though you should check it off your list, and it is frequently interesting.

This list has been trying to avoid the truly big guns (Petrus, Le Pin, Cheval Blanc, Ausone), with prices to match.

 

I assume you were talking Right Bank. Or do you want to also discuss the Left?

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Reply by JonDerry, May 26, 2011.

Great list...thanks.

Really intruiged, bordering on fascinated with VCC, La Conseillante, and I am a Troplong Mondot fan after trying the 08' earlier this year, but understand it can be inconsistent.

Figeac and Latour a Pomerol are probably next on my list to test out from the region. 

@ Panos - I was just on Fleur Cardinale's website and noticed they listed you under their reviews for 2010, well done!

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